High Quality Care in a High Tech World

This transcript was AI-generated and human-corrected. It may contain minor errors.

Dr. Kendall Ho: The results is where the relationship is galvanized into trust.

Katie Bryski: Hello and welcome to Digital Health in Canada, the Digital Health Canada Podcast. I’m Katie Bryski.

Shelagh Maloney: And I’m Shelagh Maloney.

Katie Bryski: And it comes to high quality care technology accelerates possibilities. And people determine impact. In this episode, we have two fantastic guests to explore the skills that leaders need to bring out the best of a tech enabled world, and to help make sure that the future of care in Canada is both high tech and high quality.

And we are thrilled to welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jennifer Zelmer, president and CEO at Healthcare Excellence Canada. And Dr. Kendall Ho, professor of Emergency Medicine at the University of British Columbia, and Medical Director, HealthLink BC 811 Virtual Physician Service. Welcome to you both. Thank you for joining us.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: Thanks for having us.

Dr. Kendall Ho: Thank you very much. Great to be here.

Shelagh Maloney: Longtime listeners to our podcast, know that the very first question we ask, and one of the things that our listeners are actually most interested in is your career path. So both of you have had very distinguished careers, but how did you get to where you are today?

So Jennifer, you know, I’ve worked together for a long time, so maybe we’ll start with you. Tell us how you got to be president and CEO of Healthcare Excellence Canada.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: I was gonna say, I think Shelagh actually, the history of my career is the history of intersections with yours. So it’s a combination over the years. My academic background was in health information science at the University of Victoria, where really the focus and the focus of much of that part of my career has been on what information do we need about health and healthcare, how best to get it, and how best to use it.

And then after that I went on to economics where the focus is really around choices, and how do we make those choices. And so that combo has led me to working actually across five different continents – I had to add it up. I counted on my fingers before today – with government, with private sector, with academia.

But the most time has been with Pan-Canadian Health Organizations. So lots of years with you, Shelagh, at Canadian Institute for Health Information. Then at Canada Health Infoway, and now at Healthcare Excellence Canada, where we’re really focused on quality and safety and shaping a future where that’s just what happens for everyone across the country.

So moving a bit now in this current role from the what at CIHI, and the how at Infoway to the So what, now what? How do we actually use that information to improve care?

Shelagh Maloney: I love that. Now what? So what? And Dr. Ho, how about you? You’ve got a long, illustrious career, both actually internationally as well. I, I know.

Dr. Kendall Ho: Well, thank you very much. I happily fall into this area. I never planned it when I first started. Of course, my career clinically is emergency medicine. After being a Royal College Exchange emergency specialist, I practiced in Ontario. I was trained in Montreal and my medical school at UBC, and then I went back to Vancouver and be the emergency specialist there.

And so that really shaped me on my clinical perspective of the understanding of health system and also what some of the gaps that we don’t have as we evolved in my career. And then I fall into the area of technology because I got a chance to be the associate dean at the Faculty of Medicine. We start thinking about education.

How can we embed technology at a point of care and really influence how we practice? And that really evolved into the use of technology for delivery of health services. And so through research and administration, I was again able to develop that in the faculty. And now I run a unit called Digital emergency Medicine Unit.

The concept is in the patient’s journey when they transition between hospital and community. What are some of the gaps and how can we leverage technology enabled care, AI and sensors and wearables so that we make that path smoother? That’s why the innovation, that’s where the support is. And then finally, very fortunately, I was able to be invited to Ministry of Health during the time of COVID to leverage virtual care to support pan-provincial patients in getting access. And so that helped me to start understanding a little bit how system work, how do we scale up, how can technology be applied so that we can make impact for patients at their point of care where they are.

Shelagh Maloney: One of the things that you both talk about that clearly comes through in those stories is the use of technology and the importance of technology to advance care, but also doing it so that patient safety isn’t compromised and really insisting on a high quality care piece. And I, and I think that’s really the key.

We should say that one of the reasons we got this idea for the podcast is Healthcare Excellence Canada hosted a health tech compassion quality care summit and uh, some really good findings came out of that. And so, you know, maybe we’ll start with quality of care and what does that mean to you and what does it look like from the patient’s perspective?

Dr. Kendall Ho: I think it’s a very important points, and I would approach it from two angles. One is, can I, as a health professional, can our health system deliver the rigor of the science of medicine? What I have been trained, what the health system can provide? Can I use the type of technology and use the type of diagnosis and management so that the patient get the best quality of care based on science?

But at the same time, it’s very important for the arts of medicine beyond meeting the patient’s physical needs of the treatment of their illnesses or mental health needs, how do we look at the areas beyond that? What I mean by that is, for example, do we address the anxiety that the patient invariably has when a new disease developed?

Can we establish that trust so it’s not just about a transactional delivery of services, but really then start to understand what their needs are and to be able to start to meet that trust and then to find out that we can arrive at a result that both of us are happy with the partnership so that it’s not just a one time and done.

But start to build that long to know trust not only as an individual partners, but also as a health system that helps the patient to feel trusted that this health system will help us. I think to meet that art and science of medicine means quality.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: I love that, Kendall. And, and maybe just to build on that, one of the things that has emerged as a bit of an international tool is a really simple question that just starts by asking what matters to you.

What matters to you as an individual seeking care? What matters to providers in the system, and what matters to us as a collective, as communities, as a society and healthcare being embedded in that society as well. I tend to think of this in terms of the quintuple aim. So thinking about it in terms of how are we improving the health of populations, which requires exactly as you said, Kendall, both that art and science.

How we improving care, so the experience of care, the core elements of care, how are we thinking about equity and whether everyone has access to, and the results of the right approaches for them in their circumstances. Recognizing that patients can’t be safe and can’t have high quality care if providers in the system aren’t safe, and the people providing that care aren’t safe and well.

Then last, but certainly not least, what about value system? If we’re thinking also from a societal point of view. So I think that maybe bridges a little bit what you were talking about Kendall, and then some of the system perspectives as well.

Katie Bryski: I’m glad you brought up the quintuple aim. ’cause I was also thinking of it as, as Kendall was speaking and what I like about that too, I guess is it’s, it’s sort of principles based, right?

As the modality of care changes, as the way we interact with the health system changes. I think those five principles maybe are a helpful guiding point towards what matters to us. Kendall, I know that you have also said previously that tech adoption, just to kind of move with that idea of changes in the health system and changing technology, uh, tech adoption moves at the speed of patient safety.

And I’m wondering if you could just tell us a little bit more about that.

Dr. Kendall Ho: I’m very excited about innovations. Of course, I love to understand new ways of delivering care services or providing ways to support patients in getting the type of care that they need. However, it has to rest on safety. You know, uh, it just happened that at this time, Artemis two, the spaceship just came back to earth and, uh, I was just listening to the interview.

Reid Wiseman is the commander. When he was asked, you know, how does this spaceship platform, how do you feel about that? And he said, it’s not perfect, but it absolutely got us to the moon and back. And if Artis three were to happen and they use exactly the space, same spaceship. I will fly there on a dime.

Now, I know I’m paraphrasing, but the point is this, that innovation is important, but innovation needs to come with safety so that if we were to fly again with that technology, that we will want to accept it and say, this is good. This is good technology. Doesn’t mean that we don’t improve because there’ll always be things to improve, but the bottom line is patient safety judges, the quality of innovation, not just how innovative it is, but how well it meets the patient’s care. That’s why I think technology adoption needs to go with the safety as the key speed. I.

Shelagh Maloney: So Kendall, that’s great. ’cause that comes back to the first statement you made, right? Is that patient safety, first and foremost is paramount, but it also then leads to patient trust.

If you’re doing something that is helpful to me, that I feel safe and confident, and it’s a technology that I’m comfortable with and that works for me, then I trust that the next time you suggest an innovation, then I am more prone to take it. So there’s that loop that we’re talking about. I would love to think of a moon analogy, but I, I don’t have one yet, so Yeah, you go ahead.

Katie Bryski: No, I’m bursting with a NASA analogy. No, because I think we’ve, NASA’s also a really good example of how a disregard for safety can actually stymie innovation. Like I’m thinking of some of the really high profile, really unfortunate safety incidents they’ve had, whether it was Apollo 1, Challenger, Columbia, that set the space program back a lot.

So I think it’s not just that it enables technology, it’s that we ignore safety at our own peril, both for the real lives that are impacted, but also for the innovation that we’re able to, to move with.

Dr. Kendall Ho: If you don’t mind me bringing a small analogy, uh, on tennis, I love tennis. It’s great to innovate and win tennis games, but if you don’t have lines on the ground, you don’t know what innovation means, right?

The boundaries on the line allow us, as opposed to binding to us, it allow us to be creative within those areas of boundaries. So in the same way, patient safety has to be the boundary. But that is not limiting. In fact, if you think about it, that gives you a platform to know your innovation’s working. You are creating something that’s very useful and in fact, it’s benefit patients individually in the health population health.

I think that’s what, why patient safety, it’s an important milestone to achieve, and important ways that we can judge innovations.

Shelagh Maloney: Talking about patient safety. Jennifer, I’ll let you jump in. We’ve had a space analogy and at tennis analogy, so I can’t wait to hear what you come up with. No pressure. But it’s interesting because, and, and correct me if I’m wrong, like you’re the only real Pan-Canadian organization that you’re really focused on patient safety and quality of care, but recognizing that technology does play a role, ’cause there are some that think technology is all about, you know, the digital divide and it, and it’s not helpful for patients.

But it really can address some of those equity issues. And so I, I’m curious more about how Healthcare Excellence Canada sees those two coming together, the technology and the patient safety and the quality of care.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: Yeah, I mean, I think it’s a really important question and, and I loved your analogy, Kendall, of the sort of guardrails that create creativity in that space as well.

You know, I think if we’re honest about it, technology can advance safety and quality, or it can really harm them. And so it’s as much about the how do we choose to use technology? How do we implement technology in a good way? How are we actually thinking about the outcomes that we’re aiming to achieve and making sure we’ve got the right people at the table to both be able to design for quality and safety, and then also be able to understand.

You know, how do we know if the change that we’re making with that technology is making the difference we expect it to make, or if there are unintended consequences as well? And you know, sometimes I think we don’t always know upfront exactly what those effects are going to be. You know, many years ago I worked in Denmark for a few years, so I was a patient in the Danish health system.

And at that time there was sort of early introduction of secure messaging between patients and their providers. Now, that was put in place for a whole bunch of reasons, but the reason it ended up being really important to me as a patient was, let’s just say my Danish, particularly when I first moved there was sketchy.

And so having a full clinical conversation was tricky. Whereas if I had a secure messaging conversation, I could take my time. It was pre AI translators. So, you know, I had the dictionary out and I was translating it, but the stress level went down, right? If I needed to read it three times to understand what was there, I could.

And so that technology was not introduced for people who needed help linguistically. But boy did it have that outcome. And yet, on the other hand, we can also see where technologies are implemented, where they really get in the way. So if for instance, you know, we’re introducing hazard points in medication administration, or we’re increasing administrative burden, or we’re doing other things that decrease quality and safety, that can happen too.

So that’s why I think at HEC, the opportunity is to say, what’s the appropriate use of technology that really drives us towards quality and safety? Where do we need to lean in to get those outcomes we’re all looking for? So it’s not just the promise of the technology, but it’s the actual delivery for patients, for communities, and for care providers as well.

Dr. Kendall Ho: Completely agree with what Jennifer says, and also I think that’s where the health professional or health system patient partnership becomes so important. I remember quite a few years ago I was looking at using sensors and wearables and send patients home with heart failure, a program called Tech for Home.

I imagine as the patient went home from hospital, there were at least 11 barriers. I list out those barriers, but then we had a patient advisory committee. And lo and behold, within one hour, I discovered there’s actually 34 barriers just on that one hour. And we continue to build on it because patients have lived experiences and that lived experience is so important to validate and also understand what I don’t see.

And so that partnership really helped bring out those areas of unintended benefits. Consequences may be unintended by me, but for the patients they yearn for.

Shelagh Maloney: That’s a great example. And I think HEC is really good at patient design, and you talk about that and one of the things you said at the summit, Jennifer, technology helps with better decision making and it can move things faster and and improve efficiencies and things like that, but it doesn’t fix human problems.

Handle your example is the perfect one. If you, if we’re not listening and if we’re not co-designing. We’re gonna miss things ’cause we don’t know what that experience is. Can you talk about that a little bit more about, you know, trust and about fixing human problems?

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: I mean, I think you’re right, Shelagh.

Like if we layer technology onto a broken process or a broken system, it is unlikely to improve it. More likely that it will just make the mess that you’ve already got worse, right? So I think the opportunity is to really lean into that co-design and really thoughtful approaches. So one of the things that I find really helpful in thinking about this kind of thing is a few years ago, rather than looking at all of the things that went wrong and why did they go wrong, which is helpful, we worked with some researchers who looked at, okay, let’s look at high performing health systems around the world.

What did they have in common? So what’s the positive outlier? And there were six things that they have in common. So they did absolutely start and have a systematic approach for engaging individuals and citizens more broadly in community. So that co-design from the beginning really mattered. They also had a similar commitment to engaging frontline staff and really focusing on how do you grow together in improvement culture, that this is just part of the way we do things around here.

They then had, with that sort of culture in mind, they had a laser focus on the needs of the people they were serving and the populations they were serving, and kept coming back to that over and over and had mechanisms to do that. Number four, they had supportive policies and structures because local teams can do amazing work.

Individual conditions can do amazing work. But if they’re trying to do that work inside policies or structures that make the right thing to do hard, they’re pushing water uphill. So we really need to get those enabling policies and structures in place. Um, then there’s the opportunities for building the capacity for changing collective leadership.

This is an, I don’t know about you, Kendall, maybe you can comment on this, but for most folks, it’s not something you learn in school. How do we learn how to get better at getting better? Because there’s a science to this. There are tools, there are techniques to really building that capacity. And last but not least, and this one kind of bleeds from the last one that I talked about.

You know, that basis of evidence and thinking about evidence. Absolutely. In terms of the formal academic evidence, but also in terms of evidence from lived experience and from different perspectives that come in and allow us to have a more holistic view. And that’s what those leading high performing health systems did consistently.

And I think those are some of the clues to how we can really. Build the trust, build that sort of core understanding that will allow us to lean into the positive benefits of technology and mitigate some of the potential risks.

Dr. Kendall Ho: Beautifully said, uh, Jennifer, I’ve been, uh, thinking about that, uh, Shelagh a very relevant question.

You know, how do we understand, uh, why, uh, are we succeeding? Are we building equity? Are we improving empathy? Are we establishing trust? I think those six things that you said, Jennifer, is amazing. I was just reflecting on our UBC digital emergency medicine. As we apply technology into that transitional gap between hospital and home, we look at four things to kind of advance that equity, empathy, and trust.

Number one is our starting orientation of what we want to do. How do we make sure that it’s about equity? It’s about empathy, it’s about trust. I think that starting orientation is very important to really build in that authenticity. If we don’t start there, we pretend to be there somewhere. Somewhere along the way, someone will find out, but to start there.

Then secondly, to really start to actively listen to patients with lived experiences. Again, that’s implied Jennifer, into what you are saying to, to build that co-creation piece, you really need to listen to the patients and to say, you know, what are some of the gaps that you experience individually or in a health system point of view?

How do we reflect on in the health system gap that we have? Active listening is number two. Number three is then really start to iteratively test and then validate it because it’s very rare that you can get it right the first time. But if you have the relationship, if you have the authenticity, and as you listen, you, it iteratively introduce thoughts and ideas, and then to co-create that with the population and validate it, it’s gonna be very important.

And then finally, again, matching back to your high performance. It’s about producing results. It’s about demonstrating that, in fact, it is leading to where it does and the results is where the relationship is galvanized into trust. That’s a huge moment, and that’s why sometimes we talk about evidence, we talk about evaluation.

Sometimes it looks a little bit dispassionate. On the other hand, it’s so foundational to actually convert relationship into trust. And that trust built further relationship. And that’s where Longitudinality comes in, so that you can continue to co-create not only the activities that you co-create, but the relationship that you build and the cycle will continue.

And with trust, that cycle will get stronger and stronger.

Katie Bryski: A really interesting way to look at evaluation through the lens of trust and building trust. I, I really like that perspective and I think it underlines the common theme I’m hearing across both your answers is that it’s really just as much how we work as opposed to what we’re doing specifically, because I think it’s easy to have sort of a laundry list of you need this kind of framework, but you’re really coming at this, it sounds like from more of that culture and mindset perspective.

So in terms of sort of spreading that, implementing that, adopting that across the health system, like what do you think other health leaders should be thinking about?

Dr. Kendall Ho: I think for leaders or people who want to advance certain type of innovation in, in many ways is about leadership is really number one, invest the time to know the gaps, invest the time so that in the individual service gaps or the population health or health system gaps.

What are those? What are we trying to solve? I know for me in emergency, it’s about the emergency overcrowding crisis. It’s about the primary care. It’s about one in two Canadians who can’t really immediately access a physician for urgent issues. That’s a huge gap, right? That’s why our digital emergency medicine focus on that transition of hospital to home and to say, well, how can technology help in those cases?

How can AI help in those? So understanding that gap’s very important. And then secondly is to then start to apply some of the innovative thinking. I’m very fortunate to have learned something about. Use of technology and virtual care. Learn something about sensors and wearables. Learn something about AI and data science.

And so using that lens, how might I apply those in the solutions so that we can address the gap? As opposed to creating a solution and say, here’s a platform, do I have something for you? I think it’s, it’s about that piece that I think in Leadership in Health has the opportunity to think in this way. And then the third is to identify a group of.

Patients that are influenced or they depend on, or they need a system to support them to re-listen to them. I’ve identified those elements, but four elements are important. One is to validate with them. Number two is to calibrate with them to say, what have I thought wrong that you think will be important?

The third is then to affirm affirmation with them to say, if we go this direction, is that correct? And then finally demonstration, which is demonstrating the evidence of it. And again, that’s a iterative piece and continue to build on those areas. And I think those four elements truly embodies co-creation.

And I think as health leaders, we are there to create the culture, to build the trust. To establish a partnership and to demonstrate that this co-creation works.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: Building on that and starting from that point of co-creation, Kendall, which is is so central to doing this work. I think healthcare runs on relationships.

You know, we can have all the fancy talk we want about this legislation and that, and those set the frame, maybe those lines on your tennis court from earlier Kendall. But relationships are so important. The individual relationships obviously, and also relationships between groups and organizations and setting that table.

I think is super important, developing and investing in meaningful and reciprocal relationships. Recognizing that to do that, we need to create spaces that are inclusive that ensure that everyone who’s around those tables that you talked about, Kendall, brings their whole experience and their whole selves into those conversations, feels comfortable doing so, is able to raise the issues that you know might come up to them so that your list does go from, I can’t remember how many it was the first time to your 36 list later.

So that those ideas surface in a way that those don’t, you know, stay quiet. And part of doing that, I think is also that consistency and purpose. So it can’t just be a, a one-time dive in to a conversation and then we’re done. It has to be embedded throughout. The work that we’re doing and the processes that we’re doing, and, and we have to create that space also for learning and reflection based on what we hear.

You know, it’s not a checklist, it’s, it’s not a, a simple process. It’s about really deeply listening and working, seeking to understand. And then also making sure we loop back. You know, often I think in these kinds of processes, we get busy, we get heads down doing the thing, and don’t always go back to say to folks, Hey, you know, those three ideas that you had here, here’s how they played out.

And that helps to build that trust. It’s a thing to do. It’s a set of skills to learn. It can feel a little intimidating to go down this path, and so I’m always brought back to something that Kelly Brownbill and Marion Crowe said couple years ago actually, when we were talking about truth and reconciliation, but I think it applies to this too.

They said, don’t not start. Don’t stop. So you just have to go and then you have to keep going and keep trying and learning and building those relationships and we’ll all mess up. And when we do, we need to make sure that we’re doing all the good things that we could do to recover from that mess up, to recover relationships, to learn from them, and to do better the next time as well.

Katie Bryski: I’d love to almost just go another level down because this podcast also focuses on leadership and developing health leaders, and you both, I know, lead with an emphasis on trust and equity and relationships. But I’d be fascinated to learn a little bit more about how you developed that practice in your own leadership and how also you model it for your teams.

Because I know both your organizations share that, that same kind of emphasis.

Dr. Kendall Ho: I think there are at least four elements that will help a leader to move that forward. At least it helped me in making sure that I keep myself on the straight and narrow. I think number one is really about how can I help. I think that’s universal of all of us to say what brings meaning to our own lives.

I’m very fortunate. I am grateful. I have the chance to be a health professional, to be a researcher, to do some administration, to do some leadership, but all of them foundational is how can I help? That’s the source of the river of authenticity. I think secondly, it’s to bring ideas forward. You know, I get excited very easily, and when I start hitting an idea, it gets me excited and that fuels my interest to move forward.

But I also need to remind myself I can’t go too far ahead. I need to be able to validate it, partner with patients, partner with my colleagues so that I can move that forward. And then fourth is accountability. There’s a article about complex dynamic changes. How do things change? It needs three elements of different organizations.

One is self-regulation. What I bring to the table, I commit to do it, the accountability of it. But then second is about sensemaking, understanding what others can do that you can’t do. That’s when partnership starts. And then the third is interdependence. That’s when. Partnership concepts put into practice because that’s when you can depend on yourself to deliver accountable things, but you have to trust others that they will deliver those.

I think that’s gonna be the fourth element. I’m gonna add one more and that’s humility. I know I’ll stumble and all of us do, and the fact is, relationship allow us to stumble and learn, and I need to be humble, but many people. Would love to be there to help each other. And so I think building that culture will be amazing.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: I was nodding fiercely, which people can’t necessarily see on the podcast. ’cause I, I agree with everything you said. If I can maybe just add two other things, so I’m, I’m adding onto your four. I think it’s also really important to have a strong understanding and grounding in your values. And to be able to return to those as your own personal check-in, but also as something that you are committing to in relationship.

And so that’s a shared understanding of where you are coming from and where, how you meet others, where they’re at as well. And then the second, and this is, you know, something that will not be rocket science, but leadership evolves. And so committing to that development process as well. Um, and whether that’s through formal training or through the kind of listening exercises that you spoke about Kendall, or through taking time for self-reflection and self grounding and self-regulation as well, that.

Continuous development process I think is essential to leadership. So all of your things, Kendall, and just suggesting a couple of additions.

Shelagh Maloney: It’s so consistent from what we’ve heard across all the podcasts and all the leaders, and it comes down to relationships and it’s about culture, but that sense of melody and.

Creating those spaces where people can feel comfortable using their voice regardless of where they are in an organization, regardless of what their role is. And I think that’s so important, and I remember, I think it was Helen Angus that said this in one of our past podcasts as well, is that leaders that evolving your leadership skills, and I think her example was.

Dealing with intergenerational teams, they think differently. It’s very different. And so I suspect that’s even going to be more pronounced. As you know, AI changes things and so really good grounding. Stay grounded, always come back to your values, but recognize you always need to learn. And then that gets back to, you know, your comment, Kendall, around humility.

Like always recognize that there’s things that you need to constantly learn and evolve and learn from others.

Katie Bryski: So this has been a wonderful conversation and as we’ve been opening our podcast episodes with a similar question around career journey and uh, what you’ve learned. We’ve also been ending with a consistent question, which is, if you had to pick one word to describe what digital health means to you, what would that word be?

Dr. Kendall Ho: I’m gonna cheat a little bit. I’m gonna use a hyphen word.

Katie Bryski: We’ve had that before. That’s acceptable.

Dr. Kendall Ho: Thank you. Health Trek. And the reason I said that is because I’m gonna end with space. My favorite TV program, Star Trek. And I love the monologue for those who are fans are familiar with it. To seek out new life and new civilizations to boldly go when no one has gone before.

And I think digital health is that it opens up a new world of delivery of healthcare. We should not throw away the existing care system. In fact, we should build upon it. We should leverage digital to support the best of what we do today and to fill the gap of what we don’t have. So that tomorrow we have an even better system, but it’s really about seeking out new ways of delivering healthcare to be able to deliver that care better, faster, stronger, with better relationship together.

And to be able to do that so that we can then truly boldly go in the future, leveraging technology with confidence to be able to support our patients, that’s gonna be amazing.

Dr. Jennifer Zelmer: For me, I think at its best, digital health is connection. So it is connection, you know, most obviously of systems of information, but the mechanisms that allow connections of people, of systems that allow connection of insight and of just different ways of being able to provide great care.

And that I think is the foundation of care. It goes back to our conversation about relationships. At its best. I think digital health reinforces and supports those relationships in good ways. Through that connectedness.

Katie Bryski: What I love about your answers combined is that you need the connection to be able to explore those new places, right?

The point of Star Trek is that it was a very cohesive, very trusting crew. Putting your answers together. It’s like it’s the where we’re going and the why we’re going, and also the how we get there, which is always going to be rooted in relationship, connection, and trust. So with that, thank you again for joining us.

It was a pleasure to speak with you, and it was a great opportunity to learn a little bit more about the future of care in our health system and how we can make it the most high quality one we can.

Shelagh Maloney: And I’ll just add mine to yours, and thank you for being with us today on the podcast for, but being truly authentic, humble leaders in the healthcare space, we’re very thrilled to have you and, and lucky to have you.

You know, every time we do these debriefs, it’s always, that was a great conversation. That was a great session. But you know what? We have great guests.

Katie Bryski: There’s a lot of incredible talent and incredible leaders and incredible thinkers in. Our health system here in Canada, like we are, I think so lucky as a country, as a system of systems to have people like Jennifer and Kendall and the many other people we’ve talked to on this podcast.

Shelagh Maloney: And, and you know, the other thing is that there’s been tremendous amount of consistency in the messages. Relationships, communication and culture. You know what I loved about this podcast and, and Kendall’s so good at, there are four things. He’s, it enumerating and I don’t know, like it makes it really easy to to remember and take notes.

And I can remember three things. I can remember four things.

Katie Bryski: Yeah. I was also taking notes throughout, like the validation, calibration, affirmation, demonstration.

Shelagh Maloney: Well, that was the one in particular elements of co-creation because we all say co-creation. We all say co-design and we all, but that just really gave it very specific things.

I don’t know that people have that off the top of their heads, but you know, what does co-creation mean now that here’s a consistent definition that we can all use around what is co-creation?

Katie Bryski: No, what it is, it’s the lines on the tennis court. It gives you that structure in which you can be creative and you can tailor your particular process to the particular need and audience, but it at least gives you those sort of lines and a a net and a goal to play against.

And with that, that was actually the early the end of our second season.

Shelagh Maloney: Wow. Yes, it was. Yeah. That’s wonderful. Yeah, and, and you know, if you’re listening to this and you have any feedback or any suggestions, we’d be very pleased to hear them and keep the ideas coming and keep listening.

Katie Bryski: Yeah, and I think a huge thank you as well to everyone who’s been listening to the podcast.

Whether this is your first episode or whether you’ve been listening for a long time, truly there is no podcast without its listeners. So thank you for being part of this journey over the last two years and through many more I hope. And because it’s been two years, there’s a whole archive of episodes you can explore and revisit and listen to, and you can find them all on Digital Health Canada’s website.

But we will be back with new content next month on Digital Health in Canada, the Digital Health Canada podcast.

Thank you for listening to today’s episode.

Digital Health Canada members can continue the conversation online in the community hub. Visit digital health canada.com to learn more. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast to get new episodes as soon as they’re available and tell a friend if you like the show.

We’ll see you next month. Stay connected, get inspired, and be empowered.